Mike Hayes is a certified coach, teacher, and speaker with the John Maxwell Team and the president of Changing Leaf, a leadership development company dedicated to developing better leaders. He’s also the co-author of Dreaming Big Being Bold 2: Inspiring Stories from Trailblazers, Visionaries and Change Makers.
In this episode, Derek Hatchard and Ron Smith chat with Mike about emotional intelligence, leadership, and ways to make positive changes in your career.
Mentioned in this episode:
- Dreaming Big Being Bold 2: Inspiring Stories from Trailblazers, Visionaries and Change Makers
- Michael Hyatt
- Patrick Lencioni
- Liz Wiseman
Enjoy the show and be sure to follow Ardent Development on Twitter.
Derek: Today on the Ardent Development Podcast, we are speaking with Mike Hayes. Mike is a certified coach, teacher, and speaker with the John Maxwell Team and the president of Changing Leaf, a leadership development company dedicated to developing better leaders. He’s also the co-author of volume 2 of the book Dreaming Big and Being Bold: Inspiring Stories from Trailblazers, Visionaries, and Change Makers. Recently, Ron sat down with Mike to interview him for his ManagingProjects.ca website and we thought that Mike would be an ideal first guest for the Ardent Development Podcast. And with that, I’ll turn it over to you, Ron.
Ron: Welcome, everybody. This is the first episode of the Ardent Development Podcast. We have Mike Hayes from Changing Leaf from Moncton, New Brunswick. So, welcome, Mike.
Mike Hayes: Thanks for having me. Good to hear you guys.
Ron: Good to hear you.
Derek: Welcome, Mike.
Mike Hayes: Thank you.
Ron: So, listen, we were chatting last week about this whole concept of you’re working with people who are going through a transition, coaching them, and they’re in a new role and we had talked a little bit about what you would say to them, how you would coach them, and after this conversation I started thinking well what about those people who are in a role and they’re just passed up for these opportunities.
Ron: They can’t figure out why. Can you unlock that mystery to some degree of, cause you see this. You see this with people that say why does Billy get this promotion. You know I’m working hard. In fact in some cases I may think I’m working harder. I don’t get it. Can you unlock that for us for a little bit.
Mike Hayes: Yeah it’s a fantastic question and it’s one that I think many people and different organizations are struggling with right. Like how do I know I make that leap from the position I currently have to go up to the next rung of a ladder.
Mike Hayes: And I guess I’ll just speak from my personal experience working in a larger organization for over 20 years. I was that person who was moving up in the organization and having the opportunity to contribute at higher levels. And I was doing that while my peers were observing this happening and I remember them asking me like how come you’re getting selected to go and be part of these initiatives.
Mike Hayes: And I’m like, well, one of the things that I’m doing is taking control of my own development. I’m not waiting for the organization to say well here’s how we plan to develop you and here’s a training session that you can attend. I didn’t wait for any of that. I started reading books on leadership I started attending conferences I started to watch TED talks and what I was learning I was sharing and bringing that into conversations with leaders and organizations and they could see that I was bringing more value to the conversation. And I think that was part of the reason why I was able to have the opportunities that I had is because it took control of my own my own development and I think…
Ron: You didn’t worry about you didn’t worry about you know who’s going to pay for my books. Who’s going to pay for my subscription to. You know you just did it.
Mike Hayes: Yeah. Yeah absolutely because I saw the value in it. I am also like a lifelong learner. I have a what I call an AOL which is an attitude of a learner. And when you have the attitude of a learner you can just gain so much knowledge from from everybody that’s around you. I think sometimes when people look at opportunities to learn they think well that only happens if I go to a classroom that only happens if I attend a webinar. And those are great great things to go to. By all means. But sometimes they’re not the most convenient for people and there’s learning opportunities in books and you can select mentors that are famous people and learn from them like John Maxwell and Patrick Lencioni and Liz Wiseman like these people are available for us to learn from. But the question becomes Will you invest in yourself and add more value to yourself so that you can add more value to the organizations and the people that you’re you’re working and leading in. And if the answer is yes then I think people are going to make that leap because they’re taking the initiative themselves.
Ron: So what I’m wondering is what stops people though from from doing that because there’s you know like when I was younger I think I had that view I had that I had I had the sense of I should go to my manager and I and you know I was interested in Oracle certification one time and I went to my manager and I said you know what I’ll do all this study I’ll do all I’m really interested in this field there’s a DBA who is willing to mentor me.
Ron: Would you pay for my books or would you pay for a test. When I go to write it and you know the manager said Write me a business case. Why that’s important. And I mean I thought oh my. And so that hit a bit of a brick wall or I felt that, I never wrote a business case. I just went and bought the book.
Ron: And you know I’ve never got certified in Oracle but it was it was early in my career and I think that was one of those moments when I said like you phrased it very well are you going to take control of your own destiny to some degree and not not let the answer be a no because your manager said Oh we don’t have budget for that this term.
Mike Hayes: You know what no stands for, eh, Ron? It’s an acronym N-O stands for next opportunity. OK. So when you get a No it just means OK well you know the next opportunity I’ve got to find another way around this. It is when people experience a barrier or an obstacle, you have a choice there you either accept it and stay where you are and do nothing or you find a way through it, over it, under it, around it. But if you really want what’s on the other side of that barrier you’re going to find a way.
Mike Hayes: I often tell people as well that you know if what you are facing and what you’re dealing with in your organization is not more complicated than space travel then there must be a solution there just has to be right because we’ve figured out how to do space travel. So if it’s not more complicated than that then we just need to find we know there’s a solution we just haven’t discovered it yet. But you asked the question like why what prevents people from making that leap. I think you asked that question. And you know one of the things I think is people make assumptions about their growth and one of the assumptions I think they make is that they assume that they’re automatically going to grow. Because I’m working in an organization, I’m gaining experience. I’m automatically going to experience growth as a result of that and sometimes that’s true.
Mike Hayes: If you have the right leader above you that is putting you in positions to work on projects where you can experience growth and use your strengths and in new ways. But if you don’t have that leadership above you that’s positioning you for growth, growth is not automatic. People don’t automatically get better.
Mike Hayes: They get better with great intentionality.
Ron: Sometimes they get stagnant. Like I talked to a recruiter friend of mine one time and so my background is I.T. so we were talking about computer languages and how much experience of this and that you have.
Ron: And they had made a comment to me Well if you’ve been working in the mainframe field for 20 years OK I’ll put four down I’ll put four down at four years experience and use a little bit tongue in cheek. Of course the people with 20 years experience of mainframe they should know it in and out.
Ron: But their point was that you know after that four year mark of working on a technology stack you’ve done most of your learning by then and then after that you’re just getting better at it. But your learning slows down you know. So do your growth opportunities and that kind of thing.
Ron: But I wonder, Mike, so break this out. So I started the session with saying how come Billy or Sally or Jane on my team seem to be recognized by my manager and what am I missing? You know speaking about…
Ron: So take the analogy or the example that I’m getting passed up. I’m still working hard. I’m solving just as many technical hurdles. What am I missing, as a developer? Talk to us about that a little bit.
Mike Hayes: Yeah. Well as a developer you’re you’re what I’m going to refer to as an individual contributor. And so in organizations we have all kinds of people who work on teams that don’t have people reporting to them but they’re doing a job they’re doing a function and they’re contributing individually at a high level. They’re they’re high performers and we can count on them to deliver quality work time in and time out. So these are these are great people and organizations need these strong individual contributors to get the work done. But when you when you’re making the leap to say a supervisor position or lead hand or a management position then you have people reporting to you the skill set is entirely different and simply because you’ve been a rock star as an individual contributor in your role for several years it doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re actually going to be able to inspire people and you’re going to be able to engage people and you’re going to be able to resolve conflict with people. The skill sets are entirely different. One of the skills that that I think people need as they are moving into that management role and they’re going to be dealing with you know the many different people many different personalities.
Mike Hayes: The school I would recommend people investigate and develop an emotional intelligence you know emotional intelligence is a set of emotional social skills that not only increase your awareness of who you are as a leader but it also increases your knowledge and ability to express yourself in productive ways that makes you a collaborative thinking partner with people and it gives you the ability to develop meaningful trusting relationships so that as you’re working with people you’re making decisions you trying to solve solve problems. You’re able to do that in a way that manages your stress manages the stress of the group and the team and you’re going to be able to achieve great work and get it get great results because of your ability to work with people. But in absence of that skill set of engaging people and building trusting relationships if you solely rely on your track record as an individual contributor you’re not going to make it you’re just you’re not going to do it.
Ron: So I can picture kind of a grid then. And I think I agree with what you’re saying so. So let’s take the scenario. I’m a manager and I’ve got a whole bunch of people that report to me they’re all technical They’re all part of a technical team and it’s pretty easy to measure throughput. It’s pretty easy to measure technical competency but so if you’re going to fill in the rest of the matrix though in in them determining who is it that as a manager I want to promote into a role of leadership.
Ron: I would look beyond that. In fact so much so I think that you know if you didn’t have some of these things on the EI spectrum, that you may you may be passed up.
Ron: Can you break out a couple of those that that that might relate to that in the example that I gave a developer who’s… they’re very very technical but then perhaps an example or talk about that a little bit to say OK I’ve got a manager that I don’t really feel like I’m connecting with yet I can sense that or that managers connecting with other people in the team more what are the steps if someone goes through to try in to try and bridge that gap. Because it’s not it’s not intuitive to a lot of the folks especially in my field.
Mike Hayes: Yeah it is a great question and one of the scenarios I’m thinking of and I’ve worked with a lot of clients who are in this position where on a Friday they were peers with their group. But then on Monday they step into their promotion for the first time and now they are managing the people that they had worked with. And you know it’s the dynamic shifts right. So it’s really funny because some of the some of the peers they worked with are really graceful about it and they they want to support that person in that role and maybe they have good relational history with with each other. So it makes the transition easier. There’s some people on the team that are peers that were going for the position as well and they’re kind of like you know it should be me that’s in that role so that’s a different dynamic to manage. But if we focus on the on the the individual contributor who’s now a manager on that Monday for the first time right. I think the secret to success is to come at that with some great humility. You know, your day one as a manager, you’re there to learn. You’re there to develop. You’re there to make things better for the people that you depend on to get the work done.
Ron: Somewhat of a somewhat of a servant’s heart for the for the team to try and help them with their job and to get things for the team when they need them as opposed to an elevated authority.
Mike Hayes: Yeah yeah. You what you’re not there to do is to bark orders and to tell people what to do. I mean you do need to give direction for sure you needed to set direction clearly and you need to ensure that you’re making assignments and delegating the work in a way that is utilizing people strengths and resources but you’re also there to encourage you’re there to provide coaching feedback. You’re there to listen and understand you’re there to connect with people. OK. And by connecting what I mean is that you’re there to build trust with them by following through on your commitments. You’re there to care for people you know to to care about the challenges that they’re experiencing and you’re also there to offer your help and assistance. I think one of the things that a person in a management or leadership role needs to do with this need ask themselves two questions. How can I help you? What are your priorities and how can I help you?
Mike Hayes: And if you did those two things on day one you walked in your position you said Help me understand where your priorities are and how can I help you. You would go a long way to connecting with people and getting things done through people.
Derek: Now one of the functions that I know I’ve seen a lot in developers promoted to manager is because they were so good at their last job they were a high performing IC, individual contributor, and they’re now a manager. And then when it starts going wrong or when there’s a tight deadline or you know production is down they are in there and they’re fixing it and they’re saying no one can do it as fast as I can. I can do it as well as me and they don’t coach and mentor their team and they don’t pay that, take that investment, don’t take time to invest in the people around them to make them all better and may end up burning themselves out. And then being a terrible manager. Their teams are miserable and their teams don’t know where they should go or what they’re supposed to do as they sort of pick up the easy work and then when the when the hard work comes around the boss takes it and then they feel demoralized.
Mike Hayes: Yeah without question. And if it perpetuates you create this dependent relationship and you’re absolutely right Derek. The rest of the workforce looks and goes well, I’m not going to I don’t have to do this hard task here because I know that you know my boss is just going to come along and take it away from me anyway so I just let them have it from the start. So that if you really want to create is an interdependent relationship where you know everybody that’s working on the work says I really need my manager for support. And then the manager is looking at the team saying I really need your team. I really need this team to perform because this team makes me a better leader and how we all work together is by me providing the space for you to to to make mistakes to not do it as well as I do the first time you know and that’s where that humility comes in again to be able to just be OK with it not being done the way that you’ve always done it and to give people that opportunity to learn and to do it their way up with their own style and approach to get to the result. But it takes time.
Derek: I think that I think that is such an important point. I have a friend who does he is a phenomenal manager and one of the things that he does is he finds the best people he puts into the into a role and he lets them do things their way. So he he still oversees of course but he does not expect his his team to do things exactly the way that he would do them and it makes him such an effective leader and it makes the people on this team feel so empowered. I mean I found it really inspiring to watch. I think that’s such an important point and I don’t know if that comes naturally to a lot of new managers.
Mike Hayes: I don’t think it does. I think the tendency is to say I think they feel the pressure to perform. And as a result of feeling that pressure to perform they they quickly slip into oh we got to be perfect. I’ve got to prove myself I’m in this new role so I gotta deliver results and if I don’t deliver results quickly and in an almost perfect way then I’m going to be you know I’m going to be in trouble here. So there’s a tension there of allowing people to do it their way while they’re learning and maybe sacrificing a little bit of time as they as they learn. And that tension between trying to build the trust and get things done. Yeah it’s it’s a it’s a little bit like a dance I guess you could say.
Derek: Mike, lot of the things that you’re talking about would really connect back to emotional intelligence. One of the things that’s what one of the one of the challenges in the software industry is that a lot of people are attracted to I’m going to sit at my computer and do my solitary task for hours on end. The computer doesn’t really require a lot of emotional intelligence in order for you to be successful.
Mike Hayes: Sure.
Derek: And then as soon as you start working with a bunch of humans it becomes critically important. And so it’s maybe not on the radar of a lot of individual contributors who are whether they’re developers or testers or in some cases even product managers because they know they have specific deliverables that they are creating as opposed to people that they are nurturing and growing. And I know that you do emotional intelligence coaching when you when you do that and you get people people who are you know stepping into or have just recently stepped in management type of roles. What are some of the big revelations that people see I’m really curious like what are the what are the lightbulb moments that really stand out to you when you deal with people.
Mike Hayes: Well I think there’s a couple of things with the emotional intelligence assessments I do one of them is like the first level of assessment is a self assessment. And it’s it’s that leader you know being honest with themselves and looking at who they are so that they can elevate their awareness on their strengths and their areas of development. So there is a self-assessment component but there’s also a 360 component to the assessments that I do where people can select multiple raters from the people that they work with their peers to their team to their manager above them, their friends and family as well. And that’s where we get some really interesting data because a person might rate themselves as being you know really really strong in empathy. And then you have this group of multi raters that will say you know what you’re not overly empathetic especially when I’m like are approaching a deadline or something like that right. So we see the gap we clearly see the gap in the results. And then I think that surprises people with that gap. But what’s really interesting Derek is what happens then is what does that person do with that information. And I can really tell quickly how the person is going to be successful or not based on their response or reaction to that. And the leaders who are secure in themselves and they’re humble with it and go wow you know I didn’t realize that’s how I was showing up in conversations with people at work. I didn’t realize that’s how I was showing up in my family.
Mike Hayes: I want to change this I want to do something about that. The people take that opportunity and humbly accept the challenge to grow are the ones who are going to be successful. The insecure leaders though they get defensive and they try to justify it. Like no way I’m not like this at all. You know what I mean they have these blindspots and I’m like oh boy you’re in for a long road, man.
Mike Hayes: You know the people are not making this stuff up.
Mike Hayes: That multi rater group that you selected, they didn’t all get together on a conference call or in a meeting and say we’re going to really sabotage this person. No this is how you’re showing up and this is how people perceive you. If you want to grow and you want to succeed you’ve got to pay attention to that feedback and do something with it.
Mike Hayes: Yeah. Absolutely.
Ron: I’ve got I’ve got a question for you here. There’s been a topic and I think this does relate to emotional intelligence.
Ron: Connect the dots for me if it does what I’m envisioning you know who should be put into a leadership role. This whole concept of staying calm comes into play for me. Is this like when when that the wheels are falling off on a project deadline something urgent is happening. This whole concept of staying calm so you see some managers that literally you know they they might think it’s their job to walk around and yell at people until the problem gets resolved. So there’s this term that I’ve come across a lot of clients will say this.
Ron: You know I want to see a sense of urgency but I think what gets mixed up at times is that gets translated to the team thinks that people should be panicking. They should be standing on a table yelling. And so I’ve seen this in lots of different occasions. But my sense is that you know you want people in those leadership roles that can stay calm they can do things quickly urgently. But this whole panic this whole panic and I often think, I see this in the development region a fair amount, is the people are just getting mad and they’re saying I can do this and shove aside. But I but I have a very difficult time saying that they are someone that’s actually going to get promoted into leadership and I wonder do you have any experience with that stuff or can you connect that with EI.
Mike Hayes: There’s definitely a concrete connection to EI for sure one of the components of the model deals completely with stress management. And there’s a component called stress tolerance. So it’s really the individual’s ability to perform in challenging circumstances in circumstances where there’s things that are unknown as well, too. So how does a person rise to the occasion and still get the work done in absence of critical information that’s needed or in a time sensitive situation right. How do they deal with those changing priorities. Because as projects are being managed and dealt with there’s changing priorities that take place and there’s deadlines to meet and there’s a lot of stress that comes with that. So when when a leader is practicing emotional intelligence and they have a high level of stress tolerance and have the ability to just be calm.
Mike Hayes: What that does for the team is that it sets the tone and the pace for the team to perform and they look to the leader and they go OK well my leaders not freaking out here. I shouldn’t be freaking out either.
Mike Hayes: They take their cues from the leader but I also think as well, too, think of a word like a hope as well, too. I think in times of and challenging times of stress and challenging times of uncertainty, people are looking to the leader for hope that we’re going to be OK for the future and that’s where this other component of the most intelligence comes in which is called optimism. That whole ability to remain hopeful and resilient despite setbacks some that we might be experiencing. And it’s it’s that whole ability to create this environment that you know it is challenging right now but we’re going to be OK. And I want to really make it clear for the listeners as well too that I’m not talking about like a Pollyanna kind of you know optimism that is just like we’re going to be really cheerful all the time. I think the really great leaders also will come alongside their their people and recognize the struggle they’ll acknowledge it and they’ll say…
Ron: It’s not false hope just to get someone feeling better about their day.
Mike Hayes: You’re absolutely right. And you can there’s a way to speak to people that you’re still calm but you acknowledge and recognize that there’s a struggle right now and you do it in an authentic way. But you also offer that hopeful message that this is how we’re going to get through this. And things are going to be better tomorrow right.
Ron: You’re reminding me. So this is an interesting conversation because you’re now bringing me to a point of I’m now picturing different managers that I’ve had and which ones I’m trying to relate what you’re saying with what qualities that these leaders had. And I tell you my favorite manager I’ve ever had a Newfoundlander. We had a guy from Newfoundland who I absolutely related to. And he would make me laugh almost every time I talked to him. And we I would say battled through some of the most difficult projects of my career. And you know what I’d sit down with him and we would put the facts on the table we develop a plan and we’d play the plan. And at one point I remember talking to him and he had said to me he said Ron this is this really hard stuff, eh, but it’s kind of fun in a weird sick twisted kind of way and he jokingly said that and you know there’s there’s this yeah.
Ron: You want to you want to go back into the ring you know with a comment like that. You don’t feel deflated at all. You know you feel like your manager’s got your back. They’re realizing what you’re doing is difficult but they’re somehow turning it into this challenging fun environment that you wouldn’t want to be anywhere else. It’s really quite neat but I’m only really resonating with you know my Newfoundland manager that I love to work with him again someday but those are the types of feelings that come out for me when I’m listening to you about this emotional intelligence connection for management and who might grow into those roles. That’s what I’m picturing.
Mike Hayes: Yeah. No exactly and I I can relate to what you just said too because I I’ve had managers and leaders I worked with in the past that I want to do my best work under their leadership because of the relationship that we had.
Mike Hayes: I had just such respect for who they were as a person not only like the work that they were doing but just who they were as a person their character and their integrity. I think it’s a wonderful thing when when we look at a leader and we believe in their capabilities. But it’s an entirely awesome thing when that leader turns around and says I really believe in you. I believe in the team and I think that’s what your your manager was doing for you. It’s like hey this is this is tough, Ron, but you know it’s kind of fun. And I believe in you I believe that we’re going to get through this because of your capabilities right.
Ron: Yeah I think so too because you’re not always sure when you’re in those situations you’re not always sure what’s on your manager’s mind. And when you when you can have this open door policy that you can come in and talk and you’re going to leave with perhaps more tools to do your job or they may help you with it. And you know there’s a spring in your step and you want to get back into the fight. You just appreciate that so much because the other extreme is those managers don’t offer those things and they just say I’m tired of your complaining. Everybody knows it’s a hard thing. Get back to work and get X done. You said you’d get X done where’s X. And there’s this real, there’s a chasm in between these two examples of management.
Mike Hayes: Yeah there’s one is highly empathetic and one is totally absent of empathy whatsoever. Right.
Mike Hayes: And some of the best managers that I’ve worked with have the ability to tell a story about how they were in a similar situation in their career. And when a manager can just relate to the struggle through sharing of their own experience it just releases the tension and elevates the trust right because now you have an employee that is saying OK, well, you’ve been there too. OK so what did you do, and there’s a real exchange of value in learning that takes place sometimes when somebody is managing for the first time like they’re just there in that role they think they gotta try to prove themselves. They think they have to be perfect. So it puts them in a position to not talk about their past failure puts them in a position to not admit when they’ve made a mistake. Now what they fail to realize is that if they would just be a little bit vulnerable and let people in, it’s actually a credibility builder for them because nobody is perfect and your team is not expecting you as a manager leading a team to be perfect they’re expecting you to be human and being human means that we come with flaws. We come with a history of mistakes and failures that’s how we’ve learned that’s how we’ve grown and gotten to the place that we are in organizations is through learning from our failures as we experience success and when we can share some of those past experiences it pours into people and it equips them to get back into it and to get the work done again right. Real people.
Ron: You know I think I could talk to you all afternoon on this topic, Mike. So here’s one thing though that I’d like to leave but I’d like to leave listeners with what is one tangible real world thing that someone can do to say I want to somehow connect with my teammates. I want to connect with my managers not in a manipulative I want a promotion kind of way but in a perhaps I need to be connecting more than I am today. Like what. What would be what would be one thing you can leave them with that says you can try this.
Ron: Not that hard. You just have to be intentional about trying it.
Mike Hayes: Yeah. What I would say to that is do whatever you can to elevate your awareness on a skill or behavior that you need to grow in that is going to make all the difference in the world for you making that next leap. So maybe it’s communication or maybe it’s how to solve problems whatever it is identify what that thing is and then go to work on learning all about that behavior practicing and applying that behavior and take it to the next step by letting people know what you’re working on. Being vulnerable and being truthful and honest and say hey you know what, I know I need to work on my listening skills so I’m doing that and ask people for feedback at the end of conversations saying you know what I’m working on my listening skills, I just like to know based on a conversation we’ve had on a scale of one to 10, 10 being the highest, how would you rate my listening skills today what can I do to improve. What do you need more of from me as your leader and what do you need less of from me and just be open to feedback on that very skilled behavior that you’re trying to develop and improve. That’s what I would say.
Ron: I love it. So, it’s putting yourself, at least giving some thought to a self-assessment, because some people might approach this as let’s change the world, right? The world’s broken, that’s why I’ve never been promoted. It’s just broken.
Mike Hayes: The victim mindset. Everybody else is the problem. And you know what? The truth of the matter is that most people want to grow, most people want to go to that next level, right? They have these uphill hopes. But the problem is that everything worth having is uphill all the way. It takes effort, it takes work. And we all have uphill hopes, but a lot of people have downhill habits.
Ron: Oh, another one. Another one. So you’re leaving us with AOL, the NO, the EI, and the uphill habits, oh man.
Mike Hayes: It’s too much to take, eh? It’s too much.
Ron: Love, love the acronyms. I love it.
Derek: I need a little book of Mike-isms.
Mike Hayes: Yeah, I should try to write these down.
Derek: Alright, Mike, we’re coming to the end of our time today. Before we let you go, I know that you have some consulting services, you’ve written a book, can you just tell us where people can find you online?
Mike Hayes: Yeah, absolutely, they can go to ChangingLeaf.ca, that’s my website. I’m also on Facebook, so you can go Changing Leaf, you can search that on Facebook and find all my contact information there. I’m also on LinkedIn so you can find me there as well. Yeah, I’d love for people to connect and if there’s a leadership development need that they have either through workshops or coaching or keynote talk, I’d certainly love to engage and see how I can add value to what people are up to.
Derek: Alright, great, so that’s Mike Hayes, ChangingLeaf.ca. Thank you, Mike, for you time today, this was absolutely fantastic.
Mike Hayes: Awesome, thanks for having me, it was a real pleasure, guys.
Ron: I love it, thanks, Mike.
Mike Hayes: Thanks, take care.